photo credit: patrick hoesly
I need your help with this one. A friend I know in real life (we have to make these distinctions now) is interested, sceptical and, I suspect, slightly horrified at the world of online courses and retreats, which she’s just found for the first time through an email invitation.
She’s an experienced group leader (real life groups – again the distinction). She’s open-minded and no Luddite, but she lives a Facebook-free life and struggles with the concept that true communication can occur without the advantages of tone of voice, body language and facial expression.
I’ll be asking for some opinions at the end of this post, but meanwhile, a few thoughts from me.
Expanding horizons
I know what my experience has been. I’ve developed a world-wide network of like-minded people through my blogs, those of others, and the social networks to which we belong. I’ve formed online relationships (and in some cases gone on to meet) with people I never would have bumped into in my home town.
I’ve been enriched by online courses and retreats, by discussions on e-networks both private and public. I’ve also occasionally caught the whiff of snake-oil.
Vital connections
One of the things extremists and fundamentalists do really well is organise and connect. As we and the planet we live on lurch from one crisis to another, it seems to me vitally important that the more thoughtful among us make our own webs of connection and communication.
Is it real?
I’ve been making distinctions between “real” and online life. I’m not convinced those distinctions are valid. For the first time in human history we have this potential for communication, these instant webs of information and sharing. But it’s not the first time in human history that people who don’t know each other have developed close friendships. We’ve all heard of intimate friendships conducted by letter, with authors, monastics and others. And most of us here are old enough to remember pen-pals. (In fact if you yearn for the age-old art of letter-writing, you’ll enjoy this site.)
There is a difference between knowing the physicality of someone – voice, skin, mannerisms – and knowing them only through their words. But I’m not sure the latter is necessarily less real.
And online courses often incorporate elements of physicality, with conference calls and videos as well as written exchanges.
What’s your experience been?
It’s true to say I’m considered a bit geeky by some of my friends, and I’m biased, which is why I’m appealing to a broader range of people. That means you, gentle reader.
Do you belong to an online network? Have you taken part in online courses or retreats? It would be great if you could share your views in the comments.
For example tell us whether you think they encourage true communication; what are the pros and cons; how deep can you go; what makes really good online courses or communities and what spoils them? If you run a mile from online courses and retreats, what puts you off?
Your comments would be really helpful, both to my friend and others like her, who wonder what the hell this is all about.
Thank you!
Wow. I’ve recently been considering doing a post on this very topic, on the blog that used to be my primary one but which has taken a backburner in recent months to a new one. The reason I’ve been thinking about this is because I am completely blown away by the effects that blogging has had on my life, and many of these are related to social interactions.
I was in the same camp as your friend until I started blogging and began to connect with likeminded people in ways that sometimes go BEYOND what is normal in a face-to-face acquaintance. In fact, I made one of the best, most kindred confidantes of my entire life online, and still haven’t met her in person, but I know I can speak for both of us in saying that we have had a profound effect on the course of each other’s lives, and that there is a level of trust in communication between us, and a resonance, that is astounding.
Now, with my new blog, I have developed a completely different community from the first, as this one deals with entirely different subject matter. And I have now for the first time, met and befriended in person someone I first met online. The funny thing is, she says she thought I was a “nutjob” before she (accidentally) met me in person (we live in the same town). Make of that what you will.
Geez, I could go on and on. I believe I will have to write that post soon.
Anyway, I’ll just conclude by saying that you, Tess, are definitely someone I feel blessed to have connected with in this strange, ethereal medium
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Hi Polli, you make a really interesting point about different online communities arising from different interests. I think sometimes they intersect, but often not. And in that sense it’s a bit like groups of friends we know in person, perhaps.
Perhaps also there’s something freeing about online communication to the depth you describe, initially like confiding in strangers.
And I can wholeheartedly return the compliment, I love what you write at Pollinatrix and I’m so enjoying the vicarious experience of building a house without having to sweat!!
PS: Is there something wrong with being a nutjob??
While there are certainly challenges in communication that is not f2f – how easy it is to misconstrue someone’s intent with just the words on a screen – my world would be distinctly smaller without it.
As Susan mentioned above, this strange ethereal medium allows us to connect with like-minded souls. Regardless of our location, situation, life-stage and so on. It cuts through restrictions of time/space and allows an expanding horizon.
To answer your questions, I belong to online networks, have taken part in online courses, and am a huge fan of blogland. But just as some face-2-face networking meetings, retreat, courses, can be great or dreadful, so too in the online world.
Some online networks I’m part of, I rarely visit anymore. They have been inundated with people trying to sell their stuff or service. The only way they offer anything of value is if somebody is paying them. Sadly, it’s becoming true of many blogs also. But, this is true in the f2f world too.
Some online courses I’ve done have been fairly average. They looked shiny in the marketing package, but the substance behind the wrapping was lacking. Again, I’ve attended f2f courses that the same could be said.
But then there are the online networks and courses that simply shine. Just like there are some in the f2f world.
Online communication takes more skill and care = more time. I think thats the key which turns the lock to ‘simply superb.’
A majority of online course facilitators and network founders have little knowledge of what it is to “hold space” or “curate an experience” for others. The courses/networks that shine for me are those which do know those skills and take the time to apply them.
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Kel, thanks for this comment – you make such a good point about “holding space”. I think there’s something around the feeling of being cared for and about. Online or off.
You made me realise that I think I’m less disappointed if an online course is poor – I can just drop out. Whereas it takes guts I don’t have to leave a physical conference somewhere.
I can’t comment on online courses or retreats, but I’ve been part of online forums before, and of course blogging.
I think it’s hard to compare the two modes of interaction because they’re so DIFFERENT. Online is weird because while on the one hand there is a greater freedom to be able to connect with other people there is also a greater freedom to be able to be selective about what you reveal about yourself. This is both a blessing and a trust hindrance to me sometimes when I’m having my little paranoid attacks about things.
And yet, being selective about what you reveal about yourself is going on in the outside world too, of course, so I don’t quite know what I’m getting at there.
I just think it’s … it’s so different. I must admit, I do struggle with the thought that people may connect online and then dislike each other in real life (although I haven’t found that with the several people I’ve met in real life from blogging). For some reason I feel this silly black and white thing in my head that if you aren’t going to connect IRL then it doesn’t “count” online … but of course it does.
I don’t know what I’m saying. I’m rambling, really …
On being selective, I wonder if there’s something about introversion -v- extroversion. Do introverts feel more comfortable online because they have time to think and to select. Could be.
I do actually know someone who met an online buddy and something about the chemistry between them was just off, but I’m glad your experiences have been good.
And yes, does it count is an interesting one.
We are the first people in the history of the world (well, that we know of) that have had to work out how it is to interact on this internet thingy. It’s a fascinating conversation
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Great topic and question. Not sure if I qualify as a gentle reader per se, but I’ll try to live up to that monicker
I’ve been blogging for four years, and am deeply grateful that the Internet makes blogging possible. I’ve been read, at least briefly (the web is often about briefly) by thousands more people than I’d have been read by otherwise. And I’d probably never have gotten to know you and your excellent body of thought, Tess, without the web. So on both these counts, I’ve got just positives to report.
That said, I passionately limit my screen time, largely because it’s too sedentary an activity in a world that’s already done its damnedest to have us sitting down all the time, not using our bodies. I’ve never done an online course or retreat. I want to do those in person. Like your friend, I love being with people in person. I’ve also never had a false or make-believe online identity. I’ve posted hundreds of comments on dozens of sites using my full name each time. No duality, just one person online and offline: me.
To sum up, I believe in integration of ‘real’ and online life. I think that is something like what the gentle author of Pilgrim’s Moon is saying.
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That is indeed something like what the gentle author is saying!
I really need to limit my screen time more, this is a good reminder. I go through phases.
This is a very important matter to reflect on. I love the online world – my Facebook contacts are particularly dear to me and I love being able to share things, catch up on what friends across the world are doing, learn new things…
But for me it can never be a substitute for being in the spiritual and physical presence of my family, my loved ones, my friends. Being together in one place, praying together, talking together,doing things together, generates a kind of intensity of which online relationships can only be a faint echo.
Having said that, I am happy indeed to have met you online, Tess, to follow your wonderful blog and to inhale the wisdom that comes from your writing and the comments of your readers.
Hi Barney, happy to have met you online also. Some time soon we must find a day we’re both going to be in London and grab a cup of coffee.
You reminded me of something: one way in which I value Facebook in particular is keeping up with friends I do know in real life but don’t see to talk to often. My friends in the monastery, for example, people who live a long way away. It’s lovely to know whether something has a toothache (not for them, perhaps!) or what someone else is cooking for supper.
There’s a film called “Surrogates” ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0986263/ )with Bruce Willis starring that poses a very interesting “take” on the subject. A very intriguing concept.
No matter what kind of interactions people have, both sides are at least one “remove” from each other–Don’t we always edit and “spin” our face-to -face interactions with each other? Don’t we always have ways of re-inventing ourselves to suit our needs. If you met Dolly Partin without the wig and makeup, you’d probably never recognize her. That’s a kind of filter. — filters between ourselves and the world — I think the online community thing is the same idea, only with one more layer of reality filtering.
That old cartoon of dogs at a computer comes to mind — one tells the other, “On the internet, nobody knows you’re a dog.” Because you are not interacting face to face, and you don’t have that immediate feedback, because there are so many barriers between you and who you are interacting with, I think people tend to be more candid, more “up front” because they don’t have that instant visual feedback. I think the internet has a way of lowering inhibitions. People will say things on the internet they would never dream of saying in person — cyberbullying is a case in point.
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I think you’ve said what I was trying to say in my mumbly stumbly bumbly way, WOL
All of these filters … my friend often comments when we’re in the car that people behave in ways that they wouldn’t DREAM of behaving if they were walking past someone in the street. That encasing metal shell removes us on step and removes some more inhibitions as well …
Sue recently posted..The Yin and the Yang
Thanks WOL, you make a good point about cyberbullying, and Sue’s right there are similarities with road rage.
And the flip side of the nasties is what you mention: because of the barriers it’s easier to be candid, and that can lead to more truthful communication.
That film sounds really interesting, by the way, I’ll put it on my rental list.
I think the fact that I am always a few days “late” leaving a comment says it all really!! I just don`t know how people find the time to do a lot of online stuff and “real” life? When I remember to take a look I am thrilled to see so many wise and wonderful women sharing their visions, creating websites, writing blogs, it truly warms my heart and makes me feel another world is possible..and yet…and yet… linking to the previous post..I also wonder whether the more upbeat and positive, shiny happy bloggers are REALLY telling it like it is for them and whether this might leave the rest of us feeling slightly inadequate and turning to the Self Help books when the reality is that for most of us, most of the time there is a half-full, half-empty cup of reality to be sipped? I know that I have had to point this out to my daughter, an often-tired mother of two young children, who can from time to time feel a bit inadequate when she reads the super-mother-and-artist-grow-all-my-own-veg-and-still-have-time-to-write- this-blog type blogs!
ps…my previous comment about bloggers is not aimed at any of you gentle readers/commenters who write blogs, as…true to form, I have yet to stay online long enough to read your words…I get fidgetty after half an hour online…right that`s me said and done, I`m off!! xx
Kate, both these comments made me smile. There is a school of thought that if you write only one blog post a week it gives people enough time to comment, and I think (I haven’t done anything at all scientific!) that the comments I’m getting here now are longer than when I wrote three times a week rather than two.
And in your talk about shiny superwomen you’ve sparked an idea for another post…
[...] Thanks for all the interesting comments on my post about virtual community. [...]
This is something I’m working/thinking about very hard myself. So, here’s a bit of my own take. (I’m in process of figuring it out, hence it being a partial opinion.)
I was a very active part of Web 1.0, that took place on various services (Prodigy, GEnie, Compuserve, AOL to name a few) back in the early and mid-90s. To give you all the information of every involvement I had online back then would take a book, or at least a small pamphlet, but it was a significant part of my life. I made many friends and had a very strong community, but when the services ended, so did the community. One of the good things about being on the web now is that there’s nothing to fold up shop and so we as individuals have less chance of losing each other here in Web 2.0
Back in the ’90s, I also had an incident with someone I had thought was close in which they betrayed a trust. Would that have happened in person? I don’t know. Maybe. That sort of thing happens all the time. OTOH, it was probably easier to do this when they didn’t have to look me in the face or watch the fall-out of their decision. So, yes, I think it can be easy to misunderstand what the nature of a relationship is online. One person may feel it’s close when another feels it’s casual. (I’m talking about friendships and community here.) Then, I have also had ‘real life’ friends do things that fall into the betrayal category, so it’s not as though it’s something that just happens online. And, I have developed some very close friendships that did move off the screen and into real life. And I suspect that could happen again.
I’ve reentered the online world yet again (I’ve been in and out of it all these years)and I’m feeling ready to hopefully have an online community and to have my own presence, if you will. I’m still sorting myself out as to what I want my own blog to be. At the moment, I’m pretty much off of anyone’s radar so I have the space to experiment and be awkward and so forth. I am glad to be back and discover some gems out here (your blogs being in that category) and people that I would like to relate to.
This is a grand experiment. I’ve been in and out of it since about 1988 and I have to say that I do think it’s still evolving and what it will mean to me I can’t as yet say. I’m still having a hard time deciding how much of my life I want to talk about and how I feel about doing that. In the end, I think I’ll share more rather than less and will not end up in the “shiny-always happy” camp as I’m definitely a fan of authenticity and a certain amount of vulnerability but what ends up out there also has to do with where you’re pointing your blog and what it’s purpose is and that’s something I’m still working out as well.
I will add that at the moment I live in a huge, at times rather difficult and youth-obsessed city (Los Angeles) and I find reassurance online that there are other people out there who share my desire for a kinder, gentler world, which can be rather difficult to find in this place at this time at this age.
Hi Em, thanks for your comment and a warm welcome to my site.
“A grand experiment”. That’s exactly how I feel about it. We are changing the way we communicate and connect.
Interesting what you say about the potential continuity of Web 2.0. I wasn’t involved in the earlier incarnations and can fully imagine how strange it must have been to have communities suddenly disappear.
I like your blog, by the way.
Thank you.
It was, truly, awful to lose all of that community virtually overnight. There are people I still think of and wonder where they are and how they are, all these years later.
There are people I do feel quite close to already, and I’m grateful for them.
Tess,
I’m actually teaching on this topic at Soularize in California this October!
http://soularize2011.sched.org/event/edd021ca7673a6f4d671a282918ea0fe
I recently went to a conference where there was quite a bit of debate around this topic of “can you have real realtionships/community on line.” What I found was that people who are geographicaly isoloated from their tribe-of-choice DO often find true connection on line. It’s not the same as IRL (in real life) connection, but it has it’s own benefits.
Thanks for all your contributions everyone! It was fascinating to read your comments.
-Rachelle
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Hi Rachelle, this Soularize event sounds really interesting.
I love this phrase I’ve heard you use so many times: tribe-of-choice. When we find it, so much clicks into place.
[...] was a comment by Kate on my recent post about online community. I think it’s really important (in fact I wrote about this topic a couple of years ago on my last [...]